Susie Ibarra Drumming Cosmos from an Inner Space originally appearing in Mole #11

photo © Paula Stanley

Editor's note: Jeff Bagato is publisher of Mole magazine, which covers a deranged spectrum of visionary art. The sOuNDz IMPOSSIBLE interview with David S. Ware featured in our first issue is reprinted in the current issue (no.12) of Mr. Bagato's zine. Here's an interview he recorded with one of the music's most promising drummers after she and husband Assif Tsahar performed at a '98 Wash, D.C. show.

It was the David S. Ware show that did it. I came to the Washington Ethical Society, in September 1997 [a sOuNDz IMPOSSIBLE production], planning to focus on Matthew Shipp and Ware himself--what were they doing when they made that music? Tucked off in the right side of the stage was a new drummer. She attacked her kit with a delicate ferocity that was irresistible--whether she was poking the drums with the sticks, or playing hopscotch over the whole kit, her sound was powerful, effortless, her hands a blur. And yet she was unruffled. The sound kept coming even as she calmly smoothed a lock of hair away from her face. Everyone I talked to that night had the same experience. Susie had stolen the show.
Of course, she was embarrassed when I showed her a Washington City Paper blurb that confirmed her triumph. Free jazz is not a contest or a game of wills. Nonetheless, there are giants. Ibarra is quickly moving into the land of the giants; she is one to watch. Surely she understand’s what Parker means by "mystery music". She absolutely unlocks the secrets of mystery music each time she plays. Lately, Ibarra has gotten to play often--she appears on recordings with David S. Ware’s quartet, with Parker’s groups In Order to Survive and the Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra, and with her husband, saxophonist Assif Tsahar, and in gigging duets with William Parker. As she reveals here, she wasn’t always so fortunate. Which is a shame. What if chauvinism had broken Susie Ibarra and kept her from guiding those fantastic musical excursions?

Q: How did you become interested in free jazz?
A: I started playing piano when I was 5, and I didn’t play traps until I was 16, and then when I was 17 I decided I wanted to play jazz; I just fell in love with it. I was in New York City, I played jazz, I played in percussion groups, latin music, some west african, but by then I was into jazz. It just evolved that way.
Q: Did you hear some jazz that made you fall in love with it?
A: When I moved to NY, one of the first live bands I saw was Sun Ra Arkestra.
Q: Later you studied with Buster Smith from the Arkestra.
A: At that time I saw Sun Ra, I met Buster; I was in music school for a while, and I studied with Vernel Fournier [played with Ahmad Jamal], and Milford Graves.
Q: What specific techniques and improv experiences did Smith and Graves introduce you to?
A: When you break it down, even if things get very loose and abstract and mixed up, they come from a certain foundation. There’s a lot of foundational skills in jazz like swing, rhythm, time, polymeters, and tonal works.
Q: You have an interesting style--precise and quiet, but with lots of energy. One thing you do is poking the drums with the sticks...
A: Muting the drums.
Q: That’s what you call it?
A: The drum has one sound, and you can mute it to get different tones and intervals depending on where you hit just one drum. I’m actually rolling on the drum. It’s the same as playing vibrato [in another instrument].
Q: Is it different drumming in a small group versus drumming with a big group like the Ware Quartet.
A: That’s not a big group compared to a big band, but it’s a powerful sound. Every time you play with someone, and when you play with different people, it’s always different. Each individual has something different to put out. Everybody has something different to say.
Q: What’s it like playing with the Ware Quartet?
A: I love them. It’s a lot of fun. David’s a really great musician, William’s a great musician, Matthew’s a great musician. It’s a great experience. I’ve actually played in all three of their groups, so we have a lot of music together.
Q: Was it intimidating to play with them at first?
A: [laughs] No. First time I played with them in the Quartet was two years ago in Detroit. William recommended me to the band. David had come over to my house earlier and we did duets in my tiny practice space. It wasn’t intimidating. It was a powerful experience because there’s a sound when you come in; there’s a band. In that way, it’s really effortless. There’s just so much music and it’s going on here [holds her hand over her head at arm’s length] that it just lifts you up. There’s a lot of energy, and you give a lot. They’re giving so much music, and there’s a sound; it’s just effortless.
Q: How do you find your place in all that sound?
A: I don’t think you think about it in those terms. You go in to play music; you go in to give what you can give. Every situation is different. The space is different...Everytime you play with a person, even if you’ve never met the person before, you can go on stage and make music. Which is pretty incredible to say about music, that you don’t have to know a person and you can go onstage and be able to play. Well, not always. When I go in, I don’t say ‘I’ve got to go in and do this.’ I don’t have to do anything. I just go in and play music. Give what I can.
Q: You don’t think about asserting your musical voice?
A: I don’t think it’s about that. I think if you have something to say, it will come out.
Q: How do get started at the beginning of a set?
A: There’s so many variables. Sometimes we play tunes, and boom, you go in. Sometimes you just hit. How do you prepare for the moment? How do you improvise? You pre- pare all your life. The music is just coming through me. It just comes, to be honest. But you have to work alot to get it to come through. So your not closed or fighting it. You have to practice. I’m always studying. Sometimes I talk with musicians who are quite famous--and I’m not going to name names--who are so busy doing work, busy in certain areas, and they’ve gotten to a certain maturity in their playing--and they say they don’t practice anymore. I hope that I don’t get like that. I’m not denying that the music they give isn’t in-credible. But there’s always something more to learn.
Q: It’s not difficult to get started playing?
A: On stage in a performance?
Q: The first drum you hit, is that a difficult thing to do?
A: When I first started playing drums I went to a drum- mer’s house, he was a studio musician, and he said, "You know, this is one of the most comfortable places I know. Maybe I don’t know how to do a lot of things, but when I sit down at the drums and I play, I’m totally at ease anytime." Actually I do feel like that. At the time, I said "Wow, I don’t feel like that. I feel clumsy, I have so much to work on. I hear all this stuff and I try to play it, but my hands won’t do it." Now, it’s about being in the moment. You spend your whole life preparing, but in the mo- ment you have to give everything.
Q: How would you characterize the dynam- ic of creative improvisation? Is there a way you think about it in words about that flow state when you’re playing?
A: Certain times I’m consciously aware of it, and sometimes I feel like I’m stepping out of my body and I just feel it’s coming through me. But it’s never just one way. There’s soulful ness and intellectualness in it. It’s really being in the moment.
Q: Is there a way you prepare for that?
A: For a show? I prepare my whole life! [laughs] Every thing in your whole life is going to have subtle or extreme effects on the music. It’s really important that you be aware how you live, because that’s what’s going to project out of you; that’s what you’re going to give to people.
Q: I read an interview with you on the internet [with Barbara Berg] and you talked about energy. How essential is energy to the sound you’re trying to produce?
A: In this music, you can tell energy is a big source of the sound.
Q: That’s everything.
A: Yes and no. I don’t think about it in those terms, but I know a lot of energy is coming through the music.
Q: How do you prefer to think about the power of the music?
A: I think about it as music. I don’t think about it; I let that happen.
Q: Is it hard to capture the same energy night after night?
A: It can be different every night. ... I know remember coming off some shows feeling so high. I don’t need drugs to be high. Sometimes I feel high like a day or a couple days or even a week, cause the music has been so good. I’m just floating.
Q: Is that because of the group dynamic or be- cause you’ve played really well?
A: It’s being involved in beautiful music. I mean, it’s a gift. It’s a gift to be able to be there, and I feel really for- tunate because it’s given so much to my life. It’s lead me in so many different ways.
Q: Would you go back to playing rock?
A: I haven’t played that for years. I don’t think so.
Q: What’s your favorite hard luck story about being a creative improvisor?
A: Probably it would be starting out. But the scene has changed a lot in the last seven years. It would be starting out and being a woman drummer.
Q: Was it hard getting accepted?
A: I’ve been lucky because I know many women who have had worse experiences. I guess those would have to be some memorable moments.
Q: Can you compare the experience of duets with William Parker to your work with the Ware Quartet?
A: I don’t even compare it. I’ve worked in rhythm sections for a lot of bands.
Q: How did you meet William Parker? I’m getting the idea he pulled you into a lot of these groups.
A: William really helped us out alot. He’s been really supportive. I met him in 92 or 93 and started playing in his big band. I was introduced through Assif, who sat in with In Order to Survive when it was a sextet. And he had played trio with William and Rob Brown.
Phone follow-up: February, 1998
Q: What caused you to bring gongs into your playing?
A: I played a lot of gong music, actually. I played Phillipine kulintang, Balinese gamelan and Javanese gamelan. So I was immersed for awhile in Southeast Asian percussion. I try to work the gongs into my trap set playing. It just grew. I wanted to hear. Basically it came from certain sounds and melodies I wanted to hear. In alot of traditional percussion you play a fixed style, but I wanted to use it in a different context.
Q: Where did you encounter resistance to being a woman drummer?
A: How did you get that idea? [laughs]
Q: Did the resistance come during school, or from teachers, the musicians, press or fans?
A: Everything you named. It’s really tough to be a musician. And its tough as a jazz musician. There’s a lot of prejudice. I could cry you the blues but someone else could tell you a different story. I wish no one would have to go through what I had to go through. I’m a fighter. I’m here. Maybe first starting out it happened more often. It’s hard when you’re working with professionals and they have these attitudes. It’s not just gender or race. I’ve been all over the world, and prejudice is out there. I try to stay above that. It hurts people. To me it’s the same thing. Even in cultures that are so close, there can be prejudice. Alot of it is being afraid of the unknown. Or old standards, what society says would be true. It’s hard but everyday I’m grateful.
Q: Where have you encountered the most resistance?
A: Wow, you really want to dig up the dirt. In every art form there’s feminism. But feminism never hit music. I don’t care to discuss it too much, because I don’t want people to think negatively about the music. Even in the last five or six years there’s been a subtle difference. I’m really grateful I’m not bitter. I know other women have had worse experiences. But prejudice happens all over the world.
Q: I would hope fans would just hear the music.
A: Oh, yeah. Fans are great! Unfortunately, I can’t pinpoint the prejudice to any one thing.
Q: It seems you’ve found some pockets of support, like with William Parker’s groups and the David S. Ware group.
A: I’ve been very fortunate. I’ve found some good places to play. In the last few years work has been picking up. This music’s really getting out there. It’s exciting.
Q: Did William Parker ever offer you advice about dealing with criticism or doubts about your playing due to gender?
A: I never specifically in words asked William for advice on that. In general he’s been a great support. He’d played with Assif and when he started Little Huey he asked both of us to play. And he recommended me to David Ware. He might have said "You can’t let it get you down." You get strange reactions from business persons or musicians...It’s tough; basically you have to persevere.
Q: Can you compare the duet situation with Assif and the duet with Parker?
A: Every time I play with an individual musician it’s very different. Each person has their individual voice, and each instrument is different. So it’s entirely different. Some people may be similar personalities and play or they may come from very different backgrounds yet find a common ground when they play. I don’t expect someone to be like this or that.
Q: Do you play drums differently in those two contexts?
A: Those are very different sounds--sax and drums or double bass and drums. Bass and drums isn’t heard much alone in jazz, although in popular music they have "drum n bass." The different combinations will bring about different colors. It’s best if you just listen.
Q: What specifically did you hear in the Sun Ra Arkestra that made you want to play jazz?
A: It was like an awakening. People ask me why do you play drums. It’s like fate. It’s an awakening. It just came to me. It was effortless. I loved everything about [the Arkestra]. It was swinging so hard--the harmonies, the melodies, the rhythm. There was so much going on in that band. It’s not for everybody, but for me I love it.

Improvised jazz has advanced at the insistence of its percussionists. Milford Graves has done as much as any to push this new thing forward having provided the rhythmic vortex for the work of both Albert Ayler and Cecil Taylor. photo: Paula Stanley

More Testimony:
Steve Coleman: Globetrotting philosopher

Jean-Paul Bourelly is keeping
it real with Vibe Music